Happy Friday!
First of all, a quick reminder that I have a podcast about Cuban music that I’m really proud of but that I could really use your help promoting. It’s a niche subject that I know won’t be interesting to many of you, but if you could just take 30 seconds to give me a 5-star rating and/or write a quick review on Apple Podcasts, or listen to the first few minutes to boost my download count (on any podcast player), it would really mean the world to me.
Here’s the link to the show website if you use a different player: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2158804/13249498
And now for our feature presentation:
Today I’m posting my first Substack podcast episode, paying homage to Madonna’s debut album, “Madonna,” which was released on July 27, 1983 - I’m gonna be out of town on the anniversary date so I’m dropping it early.
When I first thought about launching a podcast, I was really drawn to the idea of co-hosting a show breaking down the iconic songs of my childhood and young adulthood - which is to say American pop music from the 80s and 90s. I ended up going in a different direction because there are existing, popular podcasts that cover similar territory - and of course because I spent 10 years becoming an expert in Cuban music! However, I’m still doing a lot of nostalgic listening and thinking about the music that formed me. So I thought I’d try recording a conversation about one of those albums on its 40th anniversary.
I asked a fellow music critic and fan of this album, Craig Seymour, to join me, knowing that he has a wealth of knowledge about late 70s/80s club culture, which was so crucial to Madonna’s formation as an artist. We ended up getting into some great side conversations about the larger music scene of the 1980s, how 80s music gets a bad rap but was actually (I think) extremely creative and even weird, the recent Wham! documentary on Netflix (which I highly recommend if you’re a George Michael fan like me), and more.
You can listen to the podcast (which I would recommend, as it’s just more fun), or if you prefer, read the full transcript of the conversation below. Enjoy!
And please, give me feedback and let me know if you want more of these conversations coming straight to your inbox.
Rebecca (00:00):
is a music critic and author of two books, including one on the Life of Luther Vandross. Something that maybe is a little bit harder to find out is that he also has a PhD in American Studies, and as a fellow academic turned freelance writer/cultural critic, I kind of gravitate to these kind of folks. We're Twitter mutuals and I thought of him as someone to invite to have a conversation with about what is still my favorite Madonna album, which is her debut album from 1983—and it's going to be celebrating 40 years this month. Just a little bit about my own Madonna fandom: I have to admit to being kind of a fair weather fan, to be honest. I idolized her as a tween and teen, and she was everything.But my fandom started waning a little bit around the time that she did Evita. And I can mark that by seeing that the last Madonna album I bought was Bedtime Stories, which was the album right before Evita. And then I kind of clocked out a little bit as a Madonna fan. But in the last few years I've been doing a lot of this nostalgic listening and really going back to music that I grew up with and loved so much, and Madonna is one of those people. So Craig, tell us about your history as a Madonna fan and critic. And I have to say that I'm looking at two Madonna records [on your shelf].
Craig (01:52):
"Everybody" and then a flap from Vision Quest. So that's my little production design <laugh>. Because this was actually the first Madonna record I ever bought. And it was just one of those random things. From the time I was in elementary school, from as long as I can remember, I was always going to record stores and being like, “what's hot? What's cool?” And I remember I was - I'm a DC native - and I was in this record store in Georgetown. I can't remember what it was, but I was always interested in the dance stuff, you know, “what's coming from New York? What's hot, what's cool, what's giving, you know?” And I realize now that why people gave me such attention at the time is that it must have been an incredible novelty to have this elementary school and junior high school kid coming in, not asking for the latest pop hits, but being like, “Hey, what's on the underground? What's in the clubs? What's good?” And so I now understand that that was probably thoroughly bizarre and that the reason people were so drawn to me and willing to give up so much musical information and nurture me is because of the novelty of that.
And then, I used to always read Black Beat Magazine and so shortly after that, like around the time when “Burning Up” was coming out, she was profiled in Black Beat. I was like, oh, she's white. It was not really a big thing or anything, it was just, it's like the equivalent of just finding out what somebody looked like. Cuz I was so into dance music at the time. I think this was actually elaborate for a dance song, cuz dance music often just came out with just a plain sleeve and it was just whatever. You didn't know what the people looked like. This was very early in the video age where a lot of these people weren't making videos and then if they were, there was no outlet. I didn't have cable or anything, so it was like, “oh, then that's who she is.” And then, of course I became more and more obsessed as I saw the videos and stuff. And this was also before the time that release dates were really publicized. Like even if you look back through the trades like Billboard, they'll say things like, this is dropping this month. They don't give the release dates, because the thing was with physical media back then and the shipping, you couldn't ensure that everything was gonna get to the store on a given day.
So the technical release dates were Monday, but if it was like a chain store that had to have the records shipped to a distribution center and then dispersed to the various chains, then you weren't gonna get it till Tuesday. And it's crazy I know this stuff, but I do, because I was obsessed <laugh>. So on the day the Madonna album came out, I went to this one record store that I knew that got stuff on Mondays and it was crazy - and I had to take a bus back by myself to my house. And I guess this must've been, so this was ‘82, so I was born in ‘68, so I don't know, somewhere in my teens. But it was crazy cause the truck that was going to bring the album kept getting later and later and later and it kept getting darker and darker and I was getting more scared that I was gonna have to take the bus home by myself, but I was not gonna leave without this record! Yeah. So <laugh> we're like finally getting it and then racing home, getting on the bus, being so scared, running home, you know, because it was dark. And then just getting the album and just loving it, you know, to the point where by the time it started to become successful, in late '83, 84 with songs like "Borderline" and "Lucky Star", I had really, not forgotten about the album, I still liked it, but it was certainly something that wasn't in my heavy rotation or anything. And I sort of felt the rebirth of everything when the "Borderline" video came out, because I had kind of moved on to other things.
Rebecca (05:45):
That was when the album came out, but "Everybody" came out in '82 and that was the single that basically enabled her to make the album, right? So did you already know about the single before the album? And if so, how? You weren't quite old enough to be going to the clubs yet, right? Or were you?
Craig (06:09):
No, well shortly thereafter I was getting in the club, but you know, it was literally like, I went to a record store and asked what was hot in the club. That was always my aesthetic, at least I'd know what was in the clubs and I knew about clubs like Danceteria and stuff. And Mark Kamin who produced "Everybody" was the DJ there. So that's how I bought "Everybody", just completely sight unseen, not knowing who she was or anything and just got hooked from that song.
Rebecca (06:38):
Yeah. It's a pretty amazing debut single.
Craig (06:41):
Another reason why when she started going more pop, it was kind of like a rediscovery for me is cuz people don't realize, back in the day, with the physical aspect of it, you were more likely to play one side of an album than the other - and you didn't always play a side and then jump up, turn it over and play another side. So I was really like a side two person for the debut, so I was like, “Holiday,” “Think of Me,” “Physical Attraction” and "Everybody". So that was really my side. I love "Lucky Star", but I just wasn't that deep into side one as "Borderline" never really stuck out to me, until the video and then I was like, oh my God!
Rebecca (07:22):
Which specific sounds and artists do you think were the most important influences for this album? Like, obviously there's a huge debt to disco, synth pop, but who are the artists or who are the predecessors that you think of for this album?
Craig (07:41):
That's a great question. I mean, it was just a wonderful moment when, in the dance world particularly, there was just such a conversation among different styles. So you had sort of the European New Wave and New Romantic people who were kind of translating soul influences through synthesizers, which was a much more democratic kind of thing. You didn't need a whole band, if you could get $200 or $300 together, you could get a synthesizer, drum machine and have a whole band. And that was kinda also an extension of the punk DIY aesthetic. So you had that and then you had people like Kashif and Evelyn Champagne King doing records like "I'm in Love" where they were doing these electro synthesizer grooves, but making it really funky. And then you had the hip hop movement coming up where you were doing the scratching and everything and that whole culture. And then also you had along the way with R&B, you had producers like Reggie Lucas and James Mtume who had done so many dance jams for Stephanie Mills and Phyllis Hyman. So the wonderful thing about the Madonna album is, I think in many ways it synthesizes so much of what was going on in music and so many different cross-cultural conversations that we were having, and I think that the Madonna album really represents all of that. One thing I would say is, the reason I was attracted to Madonna in the first place is because she was sort of anti-pop. She represented everything that the mainstream and the top 40 didn't represent, that it was very homogenized, where you can see she was giving like New York Street scene, she was giving club.
Rebecca (09:28):
Particularly when we started seeing her style, right? Like the style in the videos. It's just this incredible mashup. I'm thinking of the "Borderline" video, there are various outfits she's in, but I just rewatched it and she's got on neon green socks on with some orange pumps, and then of course the bow and the teased hair.
Craig (09:57):
Exactly. And, it's hard to understand that now, but there were two things. One thing, because I grew up in DC and I also would go to New York City all the time cuz my grandmother was in fashion design, so she would always be going up to get supplies. So I'd be in New York once a month or something, and I saw people that looked like Madonna and saw that style. And then it was cool to actually see that represented, like, oh that looks like that woman I just saw in the Village last week or something. And here it's on MTV. So for me it was kind of a representation of this reality that I was seeing, but not necessarily seeing represented in the mainstream. But the thing that I think people need to remember too, about how MTV distributed styles back in the day is that there wasn't any Instagram, there wasn't any social media. So there was nothing if you lived in, I hate to throw out Kansas cuz people always do and I've never been to Kansas...
Rebecca (10:54):
Flyover country <laughs>. I don't think that's any less insulting, but anyway...
Craig (11:01):
But you know, it was just a simple fact. You weren't seeing subcultural style, you just weren't, until MTV happened and then you were like, oh, here's this stuff that's going on. And then of course, it was just such an education in style and exposure to different cultures and everything like that. So it was really an incredible moment in pop culture history. That sounds so...Obviously it is cuz it's a classic album, but it was a really pivotal, important pop culture moment in history for me <laugh>.
Rebecca (11:41):
I mean it's interesting - last year I think I wrote a piece about the 40th anniversary of one of Culture Club's albums. I was a huge Culture club fan too. I think I still have the disc [record]. I mean like, I loved Culture Club. There's a lot of crossover there, a lot of musical similarities, even though Culture Club was definitely more British in the sense of all the Jamaican influence and everything. But there was also...I don't think anyone really thinks of New Wave when they think of Madonna, but at the same time that was going on at the same time. It was all of this post-punk, I guess that's the term to use.
Craig (12:35):
Yeah, I think she was easily part of that, just thinking of things at the time. Of course she quickly eclipsed that but in the moment, like in '82 you're having like, Human League, "Don't You Want Me," you're having like the B-52s, "Mesopotamia." So it was all part of that conversation. Because the thing about it is, New Wave was so influential on New York street and club music. You know, the b-boys used to lose their mind if you'd play the beat break from Visage's "Pleasure Boys," that was that break! And then we know how influential that kind of music, European dance music - and it's weird to say European dance music, cause then that can include like High NRG and stuff and that's not what we're talking about, but <laugh>, that's a New Wave, sort of European dance music just influenced street culture. And it's so interesting because in many ways the economic conditions that produced hip hop in terms of the economic disenfranchisement and the just trying to make music out of anything, that was so similar to what the working-class white youth were experiencing in the U.K., and that's why it produced that. So yeah, it's all so interestingly interrelated.
Rebecca (13:59):
I feel like sometimes 80s music gets a bad ra, like it was bad music or something. Like it was, I don't know, low culture or, I don't know, we just think back on it like, there was such a heavy reliance on synthesizers obviously. But I go back and I listen to some of these things, and I'm just like, there was also so much creativity and there's a lot of weird shit going on in the 80s. There are some weird-ass hits, even like one-hit wonders. I can't think of one right now, but you know, sometimes I listen to it and I'm like, how was this a hit? This is weird, you know, it's experimental.
Craig (14:41):
If you go beyond that one hit, and listen to an album track on that same album, you're like, wow, that was really a lot for the day. I mean, I have to admit that I was one of those people - I used to be like, I hate the 80s, I wish I had been a teen in 90s, the 80s were so ugh <laughter>, but I think what I'm reacting to is kind of the way that, if you're talking about the top pop music as it started to cross over and as it started to become commodified and the weirdness coming down, what is most remembered about the 80s, is that whole Reaganism, the yuppy culture, it's not so much about investment in the culture of these people, but we're just gonna use these people's music to dance to and party to at our yuppy parties and let them eat cake, you know, <laugh>. So I think a lot of that discolored even my own memories until I had to kind of return and, oh, really all the things I love came out of the 80s, like house music. A lot of things might not have broken through into the mainstream until the early 90s, but the groundwork was all being provided there. And one thing I just wanted to piggyback on, what you were saying about Caribbean music and reggae, one thing I think about is, "Everybody" has the dub on the B side, and of course dub culture was...So like you said, once you start unraveling it, you get, it just goes and goes and goes.
Rebecca (16:31):
Yeah. I see what you're saying, people associate the decade with conservatism and this backlash, but II think a lot of the music, especially maybe in the first half of the decade, some of it was pretty out there and doing a lot of interesting stuff. And I don't know if it's just cuz in the last few years, as I said, I've been doing so much nostalgic listening and really just recapturing that love of the music that I grew up with, but I don't think it's bad music. I think it's really good music. And especially now, I feel like all of these pop stars are now going back to the 80s...
Craig (17:18):
In a sometimes reductive way.
Rebecca (17:20):
Yeah. but some of this stuff I'm just like, wow, this sounds really like 80s music.
Craig (17:28):
And the thing about it is, so much of that discourse, the 80s sucks type of discourse is really coming from rock critics, who just had certain value systems that really only saw things as superficial - synth music and everything like that. But when you actually read the histories of these people, it's like Alison Moyet of Yazoo, her songs were basically blues songs. The Yazoo songs she talked about like "Only You" and all that kind of stuff, she wrote those based upon blues chords because blues and jazz and soul and gospel were so popular on the underground in the UK. I was listening to a Soft Cell song the other day and I was just like, wow, this sounds like a Nina Simone song. If she was sitting there with the piano and singing and not using a synthesizer and it was, you know, an older Black woman with gravitas and not some skinny <laugh> white kid with spikes on...it just is a whole different thing, but the sentiment and the sort of theatricality and the emotionalism were all the same. I can just go down a rabbit hole of, wow, that really had a lot of depth and layers to it.
Rebecca (18:51):
Yeah. And now you're starting to make me think of, I just watched the Wham! documentary and George Michael was also frigging huge for me. And I've been rediscovering my love for him, like wow, just the artistry! The artistry is mind-blowing and to see that all playing out, like how that all was formed, it was just really interesting.
Craig (19:21):
One thing I think is so wonderful about the Wham! documentary is that if you think about the 80s, that was the era of the emotional teen movie that really spoke to teens without having the "Rebel Without a Cause" kind of moralistic tone to it. And so I think it's really so fitting that the Wham! documentary hits all the buttons of every great teen movie <laugh>.
Rebecca (19:48):
Oh, that's interesting.
Craig (19:49):
So it makes it a perfect 80s - you know, you have the sort of geeky person and the jock doing a friendship. You have these kids going for a dream, you have the little romances. I mean, it just...all the feels that I get from a teen movie. And just the whole idea of somebody can really help you become who you are supposed to be in the world in those teen years, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going be able to be with you through the entire journey once you're established, which is just something heartbreaking. But it's relatable.
Rebecca (20:29):
It's kind of incredible that Andrew Ridgeley was able to see that and to accept it and just be like, I know that you need to be a solo artist. I know you need to do your thing,
Craig (20:43):
But I can't necessarily be there. It's like letting go. I love you so much, I'm gonna have to let you go. It's like <Laugh>
Rebecca (20:52):
Loved it. It was so good.
Craig (20:53):
We're both getting all emotional
Rebecca (20:56):
<laugh>. I know. Okay, just getting into the album, for me, this is Madonna's no-skips album. The original release was just eight songs, 40 minutes. For me, all the songs are bangers. I don't wanna skip any of them, and it's hard to pick a favorite, but for me it's not really "Lucky Star", "Borderline" or even "Holiday." I think "Burning Up" might be my favorite song on the album. I think it was released as a single, but it's not played anymore, so I think it's still an underrated song. She has a few songs on the album, "Physical Attraction" is like this as well, where she's very brazen with her desire and there's no shame, and she's the pursuer basically. I just think that's interesting.
Craig (22:07):
I agree. I mean, I have such affection for so many songs. I feel like I got from "Burning Up" and the video what a lot of the mainstream got from "Like a Virgin." Cause I feel like, who cares if she's rolling around on stage, she's rolling around on the street! Like, gimme the street any day. And again, I was just that kinda side two person, so "Physical Attraction" and "Everybody", those are my jams. My mom, I'm always a late sleeper, she used to blast "Holiday" to get me up outta bed <laugh> when I was a teenager. The only song that I did not really connect to, but I had a best friend, she was a lesbian DJ and so I always have to respect that song for her. And I don't say I don't like the song, just outta respect cuz it was one of her favorites, is "I Know It." That song was a little poppy for me first, that's not necessarily my vibe, but she loved it and she had the best underground cool taste. So I was like, well, if she likes it, it's me.
Rebecca (23:16):
You know, I'm gonna tell you what I love. I also really like "I Know It." For me, the bridge is very special. Like it's got those modulating synth sequences and I just think it's a fantastic bridge.
Craig (23:32):
It's not like I didn't like it - and I'm gonna listen to it as soon as we're finished. I'm gonna listen specifically for the bridge. It just wasn't my favorite.
Rebecca (23:42):
I also think it's interesting that a lot of the songs on this record, they were not that standard pop song length, like the whole three-minute pop song. Several of them are five and six - well "Everybody" is over six minutes, I think. So think that's interesting. They probably had a shorter radio edit. Did they?
Craig (24:07):
Yeah. Two different things. I mean, because she came out of the club world and songs were long at that time...Like you'll see if you go back on the Billboard dance chart, whole albums would chart, like a Sharon Redd album. They would just list the entire album. So, it was a very much a thing. Or like Gloria Gaynor albums, it was a thing for the album to translate in the club. They knew that was club music so I think that's why they went longer on the songs. But part of the reason why "Borderline" and "Lucky Star" and stuff were remixed by Jellybean [Benitez] before the videos, I think, was just to make them shorter and more compact - which I think he did a brilliant job of in both of those cases. And I don't usually like radio edits, but I think the "Borderline" and "Lucky Star" radio edits by Jellybean are pretty brilliant.
Rebecca (24:55):
This is kind of a stupid question, like the cultural impact of this album. I don't even know, how do you even measure it? I mean, it launched her career.
Craig (25:03):
How do you talk about Madonna? It's such a big topic, you know, we need a symposium. But what I think is great is that she represents obviously what became of pop music and the sort of continuity to Britney Spears, to whoever's on the charts nowadays. But I also think that you can look back to the album and see a radical potential that has been unfulfilled. I think you have a person that is immersed in a lot of different cultures, not really in an appropriation kind of way, but just in the kinda appreciation [sense]: "oh, what's here, what's here, I'm interested in this." And kind of speaking to that culture. And what I mean by that is, underground dance culture in its own terms, by making longer mixes, by doing things like that. I mean, like I said, I was attracted to Madonna because she was anti-pop at the time, it was a complete contrast to what was going on in pop. So at times I've had such an off-and-on relationship with her because I think the more pop she is, the less I'm interested. I don't think it's bad, it's just not for me. But then she can still throw out "Bedtime Stories" or I would even say "Hard candy," which I like, where she does seem to coincide with a cultural moment and with sort of a soulful underground that is what I appreciate most about her.
Rebecca (26:35):
What's your favorite Madonna album?
Craig (26:37):
Oh, "Madonna" first and foremost, and then "Bedtime Stories."
Rebecca (26:40):
I love "Bedtime Stories!" I mean, I definitely understand the critiques of appropriation that were made. Musically, I like it though. I really like it.
Craig (26:52):
As you know, from my timeline, I'll call out whatever I see to call out, but Madonna has been conversant with R&B since the beginning, so for her to come back to it, it's like whatever. If that's what the kids want to call it or do <laugh>, that's fine. I only respond...If I don't organically feel offended by something, then I don't start with the critique and then start applying that to whatever I see.
Rebecca (27:21):
Got it. The last thing I'll say is that I was thinking about "Erotica" recently - well it wasn't even that recent. It was last year. I think it was the 30th anniversary. I think about anniversaries a lot <laugh> .
Craig (27:36):
Good for you. It's good. And I never do and I'm always glad when somebody brings it up.
Rebecca (27:42):
But I couldn't help thinking, because it was a similar time, I was thinking about the relationship between "Erotica" and "Renaissance," cuz it made me think about the raunchier parts of “Renaissance.” I was thinking back to kind of what Madonna did on "Erotica," which was much further out, you know, in terms of the raunchiness. I was making some of those connections.
Craig (28:10):
For some reason, and people are gonna hate me, for some reason I never got into "Erotica." I just didn't, but I loved the Blond Ambition tour.
Rebecca (28:19):
Yessss! I went to that.
Craig (28:19):
Yeah, I did too. And watched it on HBO. But I think there's a lot of similarities to what she was doing in the Blond Ambition tour and what Beyoncé did on both the album and what it seems like she's doing on the tour. And that's I think why Beyoncé chose to do the "Break My Soul" Vogue remix.
Rebecca (28:41):
Those were all the questions I had for you. I don't know if there's anything else you wanna share about this album. I'm really sorry that the tour is postponed cuz I was definitely planning to go to that. That was gonna be my...well the only other one I went to was Blond Ambition...cause I was a teen. It was my first big concert, I would say.
Craig (29:11):
What I would say about that, and I think maybe David Arnold has said this before, so I don't wanna take credit for anything. But I definitely agree that, I grew up seeing, I've seen so many concerts that were probably age-inappropriate for me to be at, but whatever <laugh>. So I saw the Mothership land at Parliament Funkadelic, I would go to club shows and see Chaka Khan and things like that. But David makes a really interesting point that back in the day, a show that you would see in a large stadium or something like that was just the same as what you would see in a club. It was just the people were standing on a bigger stage in a sports stadium than they were in a club. But it was essentially the same presentation. You know, maybe you'd get some smoke, but it wasn't necessarily theatrical. But Blond Ambition really brought theatricality to the pop concert in a way that was really almost unprecedented. Not unprecedented, but just the way it would all come together in a theatrical narrative instead of different theatrical set pieces and stuff - props like spaceships and what Earth Wind and Fire would do with the pyramids and stuff. So yes, it was really an extraordinary moment and a transformation in pop culture where there really are concerts post-Blond Ambition and concerts pre-Blond Ambition. It was completely different.
Rebecca (30:46):
Well, I’m just hoping that she's on the mend. I guess they do have a start date for Europe, but the American tour dates are postponed, so I guess we'll see. Hoping to be able to see that in the next year.
Craig (31:06):
Yeah. The bottom line is I'm always happy when the artists are able to, when it's something that they choose to do as a celebration of their legacy, and not what so many R&B artists have had to do, which is just performing on stages until they really do drop dead on stage essentially, because they don't have the money to do it. So yes, if Janet and Madonna want to travel around their private jets and, you know, show up and have people celebrate their legacies, more power to them. I will be watching from afar, but I'm happy it's happening.
Rebecca (31:45):
Thank you so much for speaking with me. I know went way afield, but in some ways I'm happy that we talked about the larger cultural scene in the 80s.
Craig (32:08):
There's a lot to it.
Rebecca (32:09):
Yeah. And it's a good time, and right now, I'm all about talking about how amazing that time was <laugh>
Craig (32:20):
We're vibrating on the same frequency.
Rebecca (32:25):
So it was lovely to meet you and speak with you.
Craig (32:28):
So great meeting you.
Rebecca (32:29):
Thank you so much for taking the time. So fun to talk to you.
Craig (32:33):
Thank you, take care.
Paying homage to Madonna's debut album